Property TV - Property Question Time - S2 EP 6 - John Howard and Paul Mahoney - Nova

Property TV – Property Question Time – S2 EP 6 – John Howard and Paul Mahoney

Stephen Galpin:                Hello and welcome to Property Question Time. I’m Stephen Galpin and this is the program where you can get all your property related questions answered by our team of experts. And today joining me are Paul Mahoney, founder of Nova Financial Group, author and public speaker. Welcome Paul.

Paul Mahoney:                  Stephen.

Stephen Galpin:                Joining Paul is John Howard, property developer, author and mentor.

John Howard:                    Good day to you too.

Stephen Galpin:                Welcome to you.

John Howard:                    Thank you.

Stephen Galpin:                I’m just thinking you recently did an exhibition here. In fact, both of you did, didn’t you?

John Howard:                    We were. We’ve been working very hard. In fact, we’ve been London, Manchester, we’ve been all over. Bit of a double act.

Stephen Galpin:                We are privileged indeed. Okay. All right, well we’ll get on with the questions, and John, I’m going to ask you first.

John Howard:                    Okay.

Stephen Galpin:                I’m just about to purchase a flat in a recently converted office building in the heart of quite a large Midlands town. I’m quite sure that the builder has complied with all the necessary building regulations, et cetera, but are there any considerations I should take into account when purchasing in such a conversion? Are there any factors that may reduce the value of my property in the future?

John Howard:                    Yes, there are. You’ve got to be careful. Permitted development is what it’s called, and the government have brought this out so any office building can be converted without planning permission. The local authority has a month in which to give you a certificate, but it doesn’t mean you have to change the external look of it. If you go and want to change external look, you have to get plan permission, so a lot of these developers are just buying these office buildings, converting them internally, but they still look like office buildings. It’s a problem. One nickname is slums of the future, which I think it’s a bit harsh, to be fair, but I can understand where they’re coming from.

The other issue is, if they’re in a commercial area, which probably they are because they were offices, and it’s a semi-industrial area, there is a problem with a number of the building societies and lending institutions lending on them when they’re converted, because they’re arguing that they’re in too much of a commercial area still. So you do have to be careful. You also want to make sure you’ve got a 10 year warranty on the building as well, so you have to be careful. If it looks really smart and lovely, and it’s in a residentialish area, you’re probably okay. If it looks like an office building still and it is in a semi-commercial/commercial area or, even worse, an industrial type area, you’ve got a problem.

Stephen Galpin:                I can also envisage problems with the conversion itself in a lot of cases. I’ve seen developers running out of money. You hit problems like the floor depth is great to carry IT cables, that sort of thing. It’s all got to be filled. It’s all got to be properly finished.

John Howard:                    Yeah. We’re doing one at the moment, which is 18 flats in Ipswich, which is a PD scheme, but we’ve put a lot of money and effort into it to make sure it doesn’t look like an office building anymore.

Stephen Galpin:                Are you able to get sort of pre-acceptance on mortgages for that type of property?

John Howard:                    Yes, we have done. Before I start any development, I always make sure I’ve got a number of lenders who have committed, in principle, to lend on that development, yep. Always.

Stephen Galpin:                And do you suffer the same kinds of restrictions that I’ve seen sometimes on residential buildings? One lender will only take a certain percentage of the building.

John Howard:                    Yeah, absolutely. You get that all the time now, and that’s fine. I don’t have a problem with that, but you just have to make sure you have enough of them that add up to the total. So yeah.

Stephen Galpin:                Paul, any comments from that from a financial point of view?

Paul Mahoney:                  Yeah, look, I agree with everything John said. The big thing to consider there is the location thing that you mentioned, and it’s not just about where it is within a certain region or city, it’s also what that region or city is, in that I’ve seen some problems with secondary regional towns, where lenders won’t touch them, because I suppose those areas don’t have the depth in the market that other areas might. So for example, if they said the Midlands, if it’s a city center development right in the center of Birmingham, you’re probably going to be okay, because a lender can see that there’s going to be rental demand and resell demand for that type of property. If it’s a more regional town in the Midlands, then I’d be more concerned about that, both from a mortgage perspective but also a rental and a resale perspective.

John Howard:                    But also, Paul, there are some nice towns. Some nice smaller towns which are quite up-market. So it does depend.

Paul Mahoney:                  Yeah, of course.

Stephen Galpin:                Paul, I’m interested, so why would a lender accumulate that kind of data? Because I’m thinking would they go to perhaps a normal credit reference agency? Where they’ll say, “Well, I’m afraid in that town it’s been depressed for a number of years. The bad debt ratio on credit cards, that sort of thing. It’s high.” Is that the sort of consideration then?

Paul Mahoney:                  In my experience, it often comes down to the surveyors comments and whether they see the demand existing there or not. You’re quite right so far as the exterior of the building quite often just being left, and that’s a common comment that is brought up.

John Howard:                    It’s a major problem.

Paul Mahoney:                  It doesn’t look like a residential building and therefore are people actually going to want to live here? But again, that does depend on the location, because if it’s central in a major city, people will live there regardless of what it looks like. Whereas if it’s not and there isn’t that real requirement for this new supply in an area, then maybe they won’t.

John Howard:                    I mean what I say … Well what I would say, Steve, is I turned down a lot of PD schemes because they are not in the right area, or they’re never going to look like a residential block. So people do need to be careful. There’s been so many … It’s been so popular amongst developers, and it’s also amongst developers who are developing for the first or second time because they think it’s easy, and it isn’t easy. I looked at one yesterday that’s in financial trouble. They’ve asked me in to see if I want to buy or do something with it. They’re nearly finished it and what they’ve done, they’ve developed 30 odd flats but they’re tiny. You’re never going to sell them. They’re too small to sell so they’ve just got it wrong. So there are problems.

Stephen Galpin:                Yeah. Okay. All right. Paul, moving onto your question. I recently got engaged and my partner and I wish to purchase our first home. The house we would like is available now and if we purchased it immediately it would probably be 12 months in advance for our planned wedding day. If we apply now for a joint mortgage, will we be at any disadvantage with the lenders as we’re not yet married? I’m concerned that if we were to get a refusal, it may affect our chances of applying later, as our credit rating may be shown to have a refusal. Would it be a problem?

Paul Mahoney:                  Okay, well lots of first time buyer questions lately. So far as them buying as a couple pre-marriage, so far as I know, that shouldn’t affect their ability for a mortgage. It does affect things like Stamp Duty, and subsequent purchase, and all that sort of thing, but given they’re going to get married quite shortly anyway, I don’t think that’s really a major-

Stephen Galpin:                What’s the Stamp Duty implication?

Paul Mahoney:                  So as a married couple, you’re considered one entity for the purposes of Stamp Duty. So for example, the buy-to-let Stamp Duty premium that’s been brought into place. If I own a home in my name and my wife isn’t on the title of the property, and she goes off and buys her own property, which is a second property as a couple, we would be liable for the extra 3%.

John Howard:                    3%. That’s interesting.

Paul Mahoney:                  Even though she doesn’t own, but because we’re married, we’re considered that one entity for that purpose. So that would be a consideration perhaps, if they weren’t planning to get married, but they are, so they’re going to end up being that one entity in any case. So far as mortgages for couples who aren’t married, lenders aren’t really prejudice in that way, I don’t think. They’ll consider them as a couple in any case, so long as their personal situation stacks up and they can afford it. There, so far as I know, aren’t really many considerations to be had there whether they’re married or not.

Stephen Galpin:                No. As somebody whose company probably deals with these things all the time, would it be a sensible idea to buy so early in a relationship?

Paul Mahoney:                  We don’t know if it’s early, do we? They could’ve been together for 10 years.

Stephen Galpin:                Well they’re saying it’s 12 months before they get married.

John Howard:                    And you think that’s a bit ambitious, Stephen?

Stephen Galpin:                Well a lot of things can happen in 12 months, can’t they?

John Howard:                    Well the one thing Paul hasn’t said is congratulations to them, because it’s great to think that they’re going to be a union, as happily married.

Stephen Galpin:                We knew we could rely on you for that, John.

John Howard:                    Well there you go.

Stephen Galpin:                What do you think, Paul? In terms of general advice, would you advise that early purchase or would you say hold tight and wait?

Paul Mahoney:                  Well as I said, we don’t know whether it is an early purchase. Some people are together for 20 years before they get married in 1 year. They might have met three weeks ago, and if that’s the case, then perhaps yes.

John Howard:                    Perhaps wait a month or two.

Paul Mahoney:                  But I don’t think it’s our job as a financial advisor to advise people on personal choices.

John Howard:                    Good point.

Paul Mahoney:                  I think there’s two sides to any decision, whether it’s investment property or otherwise, and that’s personal and finances. We can advise on the numbers, we can advise on asset protection, all that sort of thing, but people are going to do what they want to do personally, and I think that’s their choice.

Stephen Galpin:                Yes. Okay. Anything to add, John?

John Howard:                    Not really. As I said, good luck.

Stephen Galpin:                Perhaps they’ll need it. You never know. Just talking about that, Paul, that sort of situation, are you finding any drop off in sort of first time buyers at the moment, or is it increasing, or is Brexit having a lot of effect on that?

Paul Mahoney:                  I think there’s obviously demand there from first time buyers wanting to get onto the property market.

Stephen Galpin:                Just a natural demand.

Paul Mahoney:                  Natural demand. I think things like Help to Buy are certainly helping with that, in that it’s bringing down the amount of deposit required, which is a big thing, I’d say, for most young people, or first time buyers.

John Howard:                    Oh Paul, it’s massive. Especially in London. I mean it’s massive isn’t it?

Paul Mahoney:                  Being able to save that deposit is a big barrier to entry. So when you consider the fact that there’s also now Stamp Duty concessions for first time buyers, I think that’s up to 300 grand, you don’t pay any Stamp Duty.

John Howard:                    Is it only up to 300?

Paul Mahoney:                  Only up to 300, and then over and above that you pay a certain amount. So you still get some concession over 300.

John Howard:                    But you have to be a first time buyer.

Paul Mahoney:                  But for example, I saw a first time buyer bought the other day, they paid just over 500 grand for the property and the Stamp Judy was just over 15 grand. So it wasn’t the usual for a £500,000 property.

John Howard:                    Still tough to find.

Paul Mahoney:                  But in that case, the developer was paying it for them. So yeah, that brings down the cash-in as well. And that makes a big difference when you think about it. It’s much better than a 15 grand discount off the property because you’re mortgaging the property 95%, or there abouts. So these things are helping. But I also think that there’s a bit of a … there’s a bit of an attitude in the UK of sort of an entitlement to own. And I don’t think that’s necessarily the case. If you grew up in a certain area, that doesn’t mean that you’re entitled to own a home in that area.

Stephen Galpin:                Well, it’s a funny thing, isn’t it? We’re sort of getting a European attitude towards ownership and yet we’re coming out of Europe.

John Howard:                    See I don’t think we have got European, not really.

Stephen Galpin:                You still thinks it’s as strong [crosstalk 00:12:03].

John Howard:                    I think, in the UK, people have always wanted, had been told by their grandparents, their parents, “You need to buy your own home, have your own independence.” And for a lot of families, they’re very proud of the fact they’re the first generation to buy their own home, and I think we’re unique in this country, with the amount of building societies and people who will lend, very high percentages at incredibly low interest rates at the moment. I think in the UK, home ownership’s about 65%. It’s been a bit higher in the past, it’s about 65%. it’s a lot smaller than anywhere else in Europe.

Stephen Galpin:                Okay, well look, that’s all we’ve got time for when this half of the program. Join us again after the break.

John Howard:                    My name is John Howard and I’ve been investing and developing properties for over 40 years. In that time I’ve been very successful, but of course I’ve always made the odd mistake as well. In my book, I explain how to be successful and what to do should something go wrong. I’ve survived three property recessions. I can help you do the same. My book is available online. Please go to

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Stephen Galpin:                Hello, and welcome back to Property Question Time. I’m Stephen Galpin and with me are Paul Mahoney and John Howard. Welcome back gents.

John Howard:                    Thank you.

Stephen Galpin:                Paul.

Paul Mahoney:                  Yes.

Stephen Galpin:                I’m purchasing my first property, which is a one bedroom flat in East London, for £450,000. I’m trying to appoint a solicitor to act for me, but I’m getting totally confused as to what is a reasonable price. I’ve been quoted prices between £450 plus VAT and disbursements to £1,500 plus. My lender is offering a special conveyancing package with their solicitors of a straight £500, however, I’ve always been warned never to accept solicitors who may not be independent or impartial. Any advice please?

Paul Mahoney:                  All right, well it probably doesn’t come as a surprise, I’m a big believer in paying fair value for good advice. I don’t think you should go to the cheapest possible conveyancer. And I say that very strongly because, in my experience, some conveyancers are terrible, and I’d say probably the majority of them aren’t that great, because they do seem to be … Through my experience, nothing against any conveyancers, but they do seem to be kind of the bottom end of the legal sort of … That’s just my experience.

John Howard:                    I’m sure my solicitor will love you.

Paul Mahoney:                  I’m not saying that that’s all of them, but certainly some of the conveyancers I’ve dealt with haven’t been very useful at all.

Stephen Galpin:                Well I think the point there, just to clarify, a lot of conveyancers are not actually solicitors.

Paul Mahoney:                  No, that’s true.

John Howard:                    But that’s not a crime, because a conveyancer specializes in that field.

Stephen Galpin:                Yeah, but they do tend to over commit their time, don’t they? And then act on a very reactive basis.

Paul Mahoney:                  They do, yeah.

Stephen Galpin:                I think what Paul’s [crosstalk 00:16:16].

Paul Mahoney:                  So I suppose what I’m getting at is the cheaper ones are generally the lower end of the customer service sort of side of things as well. So you don’t want that. You also don’t want to overpay. And one thing to be conscious of is quite often a solicitor that we might recommend to a client, it’s a real example actually, they include all disbursements and all fees in their quote, and that makes them look very expensive when a client then goes and gets a quote online that only quotes the legal fee. So quite often the legal fee might be somewhere between 500 and £800. It’s about the average sort of range just for the legal fee, but then you have disbursements, land registry-

John Howard:                    Mortgage.

Paul Mahoney:                  Mortgages, whether it’s a limited company you’re buying through, whole range of extras that go out on top of that. So you need to understand what those extras are because different solicitors charge different amounts for them. So understand that. So far as using the … If it’s just for a mortgage, I’d say so far is using the conveyancer that the lender recommends probably isn’t necessarily a bad thing. They do technically need to be independent regardless. You are covered by their professional indemnity insurance. So if they’re representing you … Quite often with mortgages, there’s dual representation, so they represent both you and the lender, but they are still supposed to be impartial to either side. So I don’t think that’s necessarily a bad thing.

One thing I would say probably don’t do is use a conveyancer that’s tied in with a developer, because in cases that can work fine, but in some cases they might be best mates with the developer.

John Howard:                    Never. That never happens, Paul. Never.

Paul Mahoney:                  And therefore they may not always be fully acting in your best interests. There’s a caveat to that though. I think there is slight benefit in using a conveyancer that is familiar with the developer.

John Howard:                    Without question, because the speed.

Paul Mahoney:                  And familiar with the development.

John Howard:                    For instance, we might have three solicitors that we recommend because they’ve got all the paperwork, they’ve been through it all before, and we’ve a negotiated good fixed price with that solicitor. A few things, if I may, just add to what you said, you’re absolutely right, Paul. Few things, please do not pick an online solicitor you never see, because I think that’s absolutely crazy. Second thing is make sure your solicitor is full-time, not part-time. Ask the question, make sure she’s not going on maternity leave. Make sure he’s not going on paternity leave. Okay, because this is vitally important, this purchase, biggest thing you’ve ever purchased, probably, you’ll use a lawyer for, hopefully, and you want to make sure it goes through smoothly. You don’t want to be stressed, and worried, and not be able to get hold of the solicitor. You want it explain to you properly before you start the process as well.

Paul Mahoney:                  And just to add to that, I would say don’t use … In some cases, for the same reasons, don’t necessarily use a one man band.

John Howard:                    No, absolutely. I agree.

Paul Mahoney:                  Because if they get sick, or if they go on annual leave, I’ve seen deals be delayed by over a month because their solicitor’s going on holiday.

John Howard:                    It’s disgraceful.

Paul Mahoney:                  And any firm that you want to use, I would say you want to make sure they’ve got the resources to cover that person’s seat.

John Howard:                    That’s a very good point.

Stephen Galpin:                I quite like the point you both really make about the sort of familiarity with the developer, in so much as that solicitor is going to understand the lease particularly, if it’s a leasehold property. And that can be quite a complex and therefore expensive-

John Howard:                    Yes, and once they’ve done that work once, it’s repetition really. So that’s how you get a decent price from these solicitors, or lawyers, or whatever you want to call them, the conveyancers, because they’ve already done that process once, so they know the processes much quicker the second time and all the rest of it.

Stephen Galpin:                Okay. All right John, we’re going to move on to your question, and I’m a better say at the outset, we no way direct this sort of question to your particular end, to be honest.

John Howard:                    Are you going to be rude then? Is that what it is, Stephen?

Stephen Galpin:                Well, no, but it’s an inquisitive question. I recently went to a launch of a new development and had to join the queue to actually reserve an apartment. However, it became obvious talking to other people in the queue that a number of people had been employed by the developer to swell the numbers and make a bigger than truthful demand level. In the same way that putting false information in an advert, would this be an offense?

John Howard:                    Right. Well of course it’s an offense, and it’s totally wrong. It reminds me of the early ’90s, when we did two blocks in West Brom, and we actually had people … You can’t believe it now, Paul. We had people sleeping outside the block the night before, it’s like the January sales, and we had queues right round to reserve a flat, and you cannot believe that. And we had 142 to do, so it was quite a task, but they slept the night before in sleeping bags, or in their cars to make sure they got one. Wouldn’t that be great now? I mean how things have changed, and the fact that someone has a queue of people looking to buy makes me very suspicious to start with. So, absolutely.

Stephen Galpin:                However, I’m going to add, John, that 25 years ago, when I was working down at Tower Bridge, I can remember purchasers fighting on Tower Bridge to get to the front of the queue to buy along those riverside properties.

John Howard:                    And you won the fight, clearly, Stephen, so that was great.

Stephen Galpin:                Well, I certainly did. Paul, have you ever come across this sort of thing when people are buying?

Paul Mahoney:                  Yeah, look, I think a lot of those sort of get rich quick scheme sort of type seminars that are often tied in with developers in some cases, and they hype people up, whether they’re hiring people to join the queue, or just creating a hype around what they’re selling, when quite often there is no hype, it’s all false.

John Howard:                    Disgraceful behavior.

Paul Mahoney:                  Definitely don’t get caught up in that. There is obviously ways to determine if there is strong demand for a development, and quite often that should be fairly obvious by all the factors that go into it, so don’t get caught up in that hype. Purchase base upon the fundamentals and if it’s a buy-to-let, obviously using those sort of buy-to-let fundamentals. If it’s for yourself, then how much you really want it, but don’t get caught up in that.

Stephen Galpin:                I think the other thing on that, I think we’ve probably all seen it, these launches. The developer will have a firm [inaudible 00:22:43] sitting in the office ready to push you into exchanging, and I would strongly urge against that.

John Howard:                    I can’t believe these days that happens very much, if ever, these days, and I’ll be incredibly suspicious if I see a queue of some for buying properties at the moment. I’ll be very surprised.

Stephen Galpin:                Okay gents, what I want to do now is actually throw the discussion open a little bit. We get a lot of questions coming in about how easy or otherwise it is to enter the world of development, or move from one section of the industry to another. I wonder what your views on this are. I mean, how easy is it to become a developer?

John Howard:                    Well it’s very interesting because, as you know, I’ve only been doing a lot of this for the last year. I’ve been a property hard nose. if you like, property developer for 40 odd years, and it’s very interesting. The people I’m attracting at the exhibitions that Paul and I do and different things are people who are probably experienced investors who are looking now because they’re not getting the capital growth, perhaps, they were. They’re looking to do something a little bit more exciting with their money, and looking to develop maybe their existing properties, perhaps they’ve got roof spaces or something, or otherwise to go into development. A lot of them are looking at commercial to residential, as if it’s something new. Well, we were doing that in the ’80s and we’ve been doing ever since, but of course people were doing it in the 1920s as well, I’m sure, and earlier.

So there’s nothing new in property. What I would say, developing is very, very different to investing. It’s riskier, you’ve got to know what you’re doing, and if you haven’t got that experience, you need some guidance and some mentoring, or something, to give you, I believe, that confidence, not just to you, but also to the bank who you’re going to be borrowing the money off. The bank aren’t going to suddenly say, “Oh yes, we’re going to let … we’re going to let you develop these eight flats,” if you know nothing about it. They’re just not going to do it. Well they will do it if it’s an investment property.

Paul Mahoney:                  And I agree with what John said there. I thought we would disagree on this point, but I think the key point to what John said there that I agree with is experienced investors that have experience in property and now want to get a little bit more creative by, for example, going into property development. Far too many people we meet with are first time buyers, or have been hands-off landlords with no real experience or knowledge of property at all, and quite often don’t have the money to develop it. Even if they do, shouldn’t necessarily think that developing property is an easy way to make money. In my view, it’s a profession. It’s something that John’s been doing for 40 years. I’m sure after the first four months, John didn’t have the knowledge that he has now, and that person won’t either. So they shouldn’t rush into these things because they’ve watched some other TV shows which make it look very easy and just assume that buying a rundown property, doing some work to it and flipping it a few weeks later is going to make you loads of money, because that’s not the case.

John Howard:                    I think also, Paul, if I may say so, I agree everything you’re saying there, which is not always the case, but I do on this occasion, and that is that if the market is rising, some of these people who get into developing get out of jail because the market is risen.

Stephen Galpin:                Shooting up. Yeah.

John Howard:                    Which you’ve got to assume that never happens, and that it’s a flat market. And that actually you’ve got to get your … The biggest mistakes I see everybody making is they underestimate the building work, and they underestimate the time it’s going to take to do it. And so they underestimate the sale, how long it takes to sell them, which means they underestimate the interest they’re paying, and the fact that they can’t go on and do the next deal sooner. So it’s very common. They’ve all very, very common problems.

Stephen Galpin:                Okay. All right, well that’s all we’ve got time for in today’s show. Gents, Paul Mahoney, John Howard, thank you very much for your contributions.

John Howard:                    It’s a pleasure, as always.

Stephen Galpin:                Thank you for joining us. Join me again next time on Property Question Time.

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