Property TV - Property Question Time - S2 EP 10 - John Howard and Paul Mahoney - Nova

Property TV – Property Question Time – S2 EP 10 – John Howard and Paul Mahoney

Stephen Galpin:                Hello and welcome to Property Question Time. This is the program where you can have your property related questions answered by our team of experts. I’m Stephen Galpin and with me today are Paul Mahoney… Paul, welcome. CEO of Nova Financial Group, public speaker, and author.

Paul Mahoney:                  Thanks, Stephen.

Stephen Galpin:                Good. Good to see you. John Howard, welcome again. Property developer, author, mentor, public speaker. Very busy chap.

John Howard:                    I am.

Stephen Galpin:                Good. Great to see you and thank you both for your time coming in today. Well, as you can see we’re coming from our new studio adjacent to Canary Wharf. So, I hope you’re enjoying this experience, both of you-

John Howard:                    Fantastic, fantastic.

Paul Mahoney:                  [crosstalk 00:01:00]

Stephen Galpin:                Good. Okay, Paul, I’m going to ask you the first question and it’s this: investing in the north is great for new investors living with reasonable traveling distance of their investment location. However, although percentage returns on investments are higher in the north, actual returns… I presume he means by that cash. Actual returns are higher in London in the home counties. Is this simply a result of property prices being higher in London or perhaps real demand levels differing within in market?

Paul Mahoney:                  Okay.

Stephen Galpin:                A bit of a few questions.

Paul Mahoney:                  Yeah, there’s a few points to that. All right, let’s work through a couple of those points individually. I think there’s a few assumptions made there. First off, they mention about the north being good for new investors. I assume that’s because it’s a lower entry level, which is probably true.

John Howard:                    [crosstalk 00:01:56]

Paul Mahoney:                  You can get a lot more for your money, there’s safety in yield whereas of course, if you’re buying somewhere in London, the yields are much lower. The borrowing there that you’re able to access is much lower, more cash applied an there’s less of a safety net. So, that’s quite right.

I don’t necessarily agree that your property needs to be within traveling distance of where you live. I think investing should be very unemotional and commercially minded and it should be about investing in the best possible property and location for your goals and really nothing to do with where you’ve just happened to choose to live, because that’s very emotional. That’s just my opinion. In the right circumstance, with the right team around you and all that sort of thing.

It depends what they mean by actual returns in London and the southeast is better. If they’re talking about in London you get 500 pounds rent a month and in Manchester, you get 300 pounds rent a month, if that’s what they mean, then of course you need to look at that relative to the purchase price.

Stephen Galpin:                Sure.

Paul Mahoney:                  Because of course, the yields being the percentage of rent divided by purchase price are obviously far greater in the north. Quite often more than double than are available in London. If perhaps they’re referring to the capital growth that London and the southeast has experienced, certainly historically they’d be right but I don’t agree that past performance is an indication of future performance.

John Howard:                    Oh, that’s interesting.

Paul Mahoney:                  If you look at the past three years for example, the fastest growing cities in the UK have been Birmingham, Manchester, and Liverpool and I don’t think that’s going to change anytime soon. We saw the nationwide house price index a couple of days ago which said that the UK has only grown by 0.2%, I think it was, on average over the past year, whereas then the home track index came out and it said 2.2.

That’s because nationwide is southern focused whereas home track looks at the whole country. In that same home track report, it said that all those three cities I just mentioned have grown by more than 5% over the past 12 months.

Stephen Galpin:                What do you put that down to?

Paul Mahoney:                  I put that down to net migration within the UK. People moving from the south to the north. A lot of that-

John Howard:                    To get better value for money?

Paul Mahoney:                  Better value for money. For example, 300 grand in London buys you nothing pretty much. Nothing really, any central locations or that’s really worth buying. You can get a penthouse apartment in any of those three cities I’ve just mentioned in the center for that sort of money.

John Howard:                    But you can also get that in other parts of the south as well.

Paul Mahoney:                  Potentially, yes but they won’t be as significant economic hubs as what I just mentioned.

John Howard:                    No, I agree with that.

Paul Mahoney:                  That leads onto the next points. Employment, infrastructure, facilities, amenities. The young professionals today want to live with all those things on their doorstep and those cities I just mentioned offer those things. That’s part of the driving factor. Infrastructure’s a key one as well. There’s lots of money being spent in those cities.

I think London is always going to do well. From a property perspective, people want to have property in London regardless of where they live but as an investment, it’s very, very difficult to justify it in today’s market given the limited borrowing ability, given the property price and the amount of cash that you need to apply.

Stephen Galpin:                The entry level is so huge, isn’t it?

John Howard:                    The entry level is huge. I think Paul, most of what you say I think is absolutely sound. What I would say about the north, you do need to be careful and you’ve mentioned the big cities and I agree with that entirely. What you got to remember in the north is not really housing shortage at all.

You need to pick areas where there’s a lot of people, a lot of work and so on. Some of these other areas that look very cheap, they’re very cheap for a reason.

Paul Mahoney:                  I agree, completely.

John Howard:                    Don’t buy them.

Paul Mahoney:                  I think too many people look at property from a macro perspective. They look at the UK property market. There’s no such thing. There’s also no such thing as the greater Manchester property market. There’s so many different areas within that.

John Howard:                    Absolutely.

Paul Mahoney:                  I agree with you, there isn’t a shortage in a lot of these northern cities but in the central areas of all those three cities I mentioned, there is.

John Howard:                    I agree. The other thing is what are you going to do if you buy a property up north and you live down south? There’s nothing wrong with that. How many times do you go and look at a property and stand outside it because you got tenants in it and go, “Yeah, that’s mine, that one. That’s mine”?

I’ve had properties in the Isle of Wight for 27, 28 years and I’ve never been back since.

Stephen Galpin:                But John, it comes back to the same thing again, doesn’t it? Over this sort of location business, if you’ve got the right team around you, if you-

John Howard:                    You need the right team [crosstalk 00:06:33]. It sounds easy for me, I understand for Paul. I understand it because we’ve got a good team around us. You need to get a good team. Whatever you’re doing in life, you need the business, you need a really good team. The team need to be better than you. That’s the key.

Stephen Galpin:                Okay. Anything extra [inaudible 00:06:47] Paul?

Paul Mahoney:                  No, I think that covers it.

Stephen Galpin:                Okay, good. John, we’re going to move on to your question. You’re really going to love this one.

John Howard:                    Oh, great.

Stephen Galpin:                My ambition is to be a property developer.

John Howard:                    Good.

Stephen Galpin:                I’ve read some horror stories about developments going wrong and mistakes being made. What’s the worst mistake you’ve ever made as a panelist in the property industry?

John Howard:                    The worst mistake I’ve ever made? Goodness me, let me have a think. I’ve made some. The great thing is I now tell people what those mistakes are, how not to do them.

Stephen Galpin:                Right.

John Howard:                    They’ve got a start on me, so that’s good. Goodness me. Well, of course, when there’s property recession coming or you’re in a property recession, it’s not all your own fault. Slightly your own fault because you had bought it but when the market is doing that…

I do tell people how to get out of that situation, having survived three recessions. I think the biggest thing is not to borrow too much money on any one project because even then if the market goes down, you can get out of it. Actually, everything I’ve bought, I’ve managed to get out of even if I’ve made a mistake.

By the way, sometimes I realize I made a mistake very early on and I’ve just shut it out straight away. I haven’t battled on, I haven’t buried my head in the sand for three years pretending it’s going to get better because it doesn’t.

If you make a mistake, and I’ve done that, put your hand up, accept it, get rid as quick as possible and move on next. Get as much cash back as you can from that deal and move on to the next deal you can make some money on. There’s no point in harping on, going on and on and on about how you thought you could do it and you haven’t done it.

You’re only as good as your next deal, so don’t worry whether you’ve lost money on your deal. Ignore it. Move on to the next deal. You’re only as good as your next deal and if the next deal’s a good deal, great.

Stephen Galpin:                I think there’s a couple of things there, John, isn’t there? I think one of the cleverest things you can do in the property market is understand when you’re in a recession-

John Howard:                    Get out.

Stephen Galpin:                … and understand when you’re in a boom time.

John Howard:                    Spot on, absolutely.

Stephen Galpin:                And people don’t always get that right. They think a boom’s going to go on forever.

John Howard:                    They’re like gamblers. One more go, one more go, one more spin. I can buy and sell one more before it drops. It’s like [inaudible 00:09:00].

Stephen Galpin:                But again, you’re right. Paul’s words certainly don’t get emotive about property.

John Howard:                    No, it’s business.

Stephen Galpin:                And people do tend to hang onto things hoping it’ll come right and it very rarely does.

John Howard:                    Funny enough, I got criticized in an article for… Someone came to some speaking I did, a journalist, and he said, “I’ve never met a property person so empty about the property they’re talking about.” I’m [enthused 00:09:28] about property but I’m not particularly enthused about any one property that I buy because I need to be level about it.

I’m not buying it because I love it. I’m not buying it because… You have to be level and you have to have a business opinion and the business attitude to it.

Stephen Galpin:                I used to work many years ago for quite a big firm, [Charter Surveyors 00:09:47] and the senior surveyor, he used to say to me there there’s only one sort of good property and that’s a sold property.

John Howard:                    Spot on. Absolutely.

Stephen Galpin:                Okay, well that’s all we got time for in this half of the show, so join us again after the break.

Video:                                 Property is a great investment option, but it’s one of the largest purchasers that you’ll ever make. As individuals, we’re all limited by our resources and regardless of our experience, knowledge or time, we can achieve much more with the help of a qualified team and extra resources being available.

Nova Financial specialize in assisting clients to achieve financial freedom through property investment. With over 100 years of experience, we shape your family’s future. To invest in property with absolute confidence, call us on 0203 8000 600 or visit nova.financial.

John Howard:                    My name is John Howard and I’ve been investing in developing properties for over 40 years. In that time, I’ve been very successful but of course, I’ve always made the odd mistake as well.

In my book, I explain how to be successful and what to do should something go wrong. I’ve survived three property recessions. I can help you do the same. My book is available online. Please go to johnhowardpropertyexpert.co.uk.

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Video:                                 Meet the Author is a brand new miniseries involving leading experts in the property industry, including mentors, developers, property lawyers, and other industry experts who share insightful stories about their journey and their books. Each book is compiled by authors with years of valuable experience, tips, and observations providing you with new knowledge about the property industry. To find out more, visit the website property-tv.co.uk/library.

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Stephen Galpin:                Hello and welcome to Property TV. I’m Stephen Galpin, host of Property Question Time. We’ve completed the filming of series one, over 260 successful episodes. We’re now about to film series two. The difference? Well, we’re going to be filming in our new studio adjacent to the Canary Wharf development. Keep those questions coming in to us, keep our panelists, our experts busy and we hope you enjoy the new series as much as you did the last one.

Hello, and welcome back to part two of Property Question Time. With me are Paul Mahoney and John Howard and I’m Stephen Galpin.

Paul, your next question. I’m at the point of creating a small buy to let portfolio. If I buy the properties in individual limited companies, when I come to sell these properties, I’m told that I could just sell the company with the assets in place and therefore help the purchaser negate the need to pay any stamp duty. Is this correct? If it is correct, it will of course make my properties very attractive for a purchaser, especially given the fact that it could avoid the multiple level of property stamp duty where two or more properties are involved. What do you think?

Paul Mahoney:                  Okay. I’ve heard of this being done before. Obviously, this person should seek tax advice specific to their situation but yes, technically my understanding is that you can sell the shares and the person takes over the company. Obviously, it’s the company that owns the property, not the individual and therefore, there wouldn’t be a change of ownership of the property and therefore, there wouldn’t be stamp duty or capital gains.

John Howard:                    I think you pay half percent stamp duty.

Paul Mahoney:                  Right, okay.

John Howard:                    I think [inaudible 00:14:54].

Stephen Galpin:                Is that on the basis of the shares?

John Howard:                    Yeah.

Stephen Galpin:                All right, I see.

Paul Mahoney:                  I suppose that some of the difficulties with that is does this person want to buy the property within a limited company? Obviously, depending on the size of this portfolio, if they’re going to have 10 properties in 10 different companies, there’s also accounting costs associated with that.

John Howard:                    Spot on, Paul.

Paul Mahoney:                  I’ve not heard of somebody buying a portfolio property split across many, many different companies. I have heard of people building a portfolio within perhaps one company and then trying to sell the company but that creates the difficulty of finding someone who actually wants your portfolio.

Stephen Galpin:                And also presumably somebody who could get finance for a relatively anonymous company, I suppose or if that’s the right word.

Paul Mahoney:                  Exactly.

John Howard:                    They basically buy the shares, so actually the finance would stay in place.

Paul Mahoney:                  Yes, and I think the stamp duty you’re referring to is the stamp duty you pay on purchasing shares as opposed to related to the property purchase.

Stephen Galpin:                But that’s an interesting point, Paul. From the point of view of finance, if the company that had the properties had got an existing mortgage, do you think the lender would be happy to pass it across if there’s a substantial shareholding change?

Paul Mahoney:                  The lender wouldn’t pass it across, in all the cases I know of anyway, because the director and shareholder, initial director and shareholder would have to give a personal guarantee to that lender.

John Howard:                    It’d have to be replaced, wouldn’t it?

Paul Mahoney:                  Yeah. Effectively, they are involved in the lending. What I would assume would have to happen is the new buyer would need to take out new mortgages on the properties. Depending on the size of the portfolios, where they are and what they are-

John Howard:                    It’s expensive.

Paul Mahoney:                  It could be expensive. They might find one lender who would do the whole lot. There are lenders that will do portfolio lending or they might need to split it across a number of lenders. I suppose what they’re trying to do here so far as avoiding stamp duty, there’s an old saying of not letting the tax tail wag the investment dog.

John Howard:                    Good point. I think that’s-

Paul Mahoney:                  I think that’s a relevant point here.

John Howard:                    Paul, I think you’re right and certainly I get offered a number of portfolios and when they want to sell the company, my heart sinks because the due diligence we’d have to do with the accountants to make sure that all those properties and the company has not had any problems, someone hasn’t fallen down the stairs four years ago and is going to claim in a year’s time on us and this sort of thing, it’s virtually impossible.

I was always taught by a very experienced, wealthy backer who I still deal with his family now, never, ever, ever buy a company because you don’t know what you’re buying. You don’t know what you’re buying.

Stephen Galpin:                Well, even if you’re given assurances, you’ve got to look at the worth of those assurances.

John Howard:                    Absolutely. Absolutely, and you bought the portfolio and they’ve gone to Australia even to live. I know some people might want to do that. [crosstalk 00:17:53]. You’ll never get ahold of them again, so it’s very difficult.

Stephen Galpin:                Well, guys, I think your answer is here. Just be careful.

John Howard:                    Basically.

Stephen Galpin:                John, let’s move on to your second question. I’m just about to lay the first brick on a new development of six apartments within the M25.

John Howard:                    Congratulations. Fantastic. Exciting time.

Stephen Galpin:                This is my first project, so could I ask the panel what they think perhaps the three key areas are that I should concentrate on through to the journey to completion.

John Howard:                    Right. Time, cost, and prices, sale prices. They’re the three things they should be conscious about. One, to keep it on time because time costs money. Secondly, to keep the cost at what the price is that you’ve been given to build it and if they’re building it themselves, that’s a bit harder to do.

If you’ve got a builder in on a fixed contract and time, that’s much easier obviously. And also, don’t believe the hype on the sale prices. Listen to what the agent says but make your own mind up what they’re worth, because if the agent’s got them wrong and you take six months to sell your first flat, you’re not going to be very happy.

There are the three things you need to be very, very disciplined and controlled and don’t mentally think you’ve solved them for God knows what money until you’ve sold them because it’s the last one, by the way, that’s the profit in your deal. Nevermind about the other five. You need to get the sixth one sold.

Don’t start celebrating with champagne and taking your beautiful wife or girlfriend or mistress out for dinner until the last one’s sold. Then you can celebrate.

Stephen Galpin:                We’re not all so fortunate as you, John.

John Howard:                    What can I say?

Stephen Galpin:                There we are. Okay, now look gents, what we’re going to do now is talk about something we call [an extra time 00:19:42]. It’s just an open discussion on perhaps a topic or subject and that subject this week is this. What would the panel like to see any new government do to revitalize the housing market?

John Howard:                    Should I go first?

Paul Mahoney:                  You can go first.

John Howard:                    Okay. Last Friday, I was with the secretary of state for housing, Robert Jenrick, and I was bending his ear on a number of subjects, [inaudible 00:20:07] sites which is another issue and he was asking me what did I think about the stamp duty and empty rates on commercial property in town centers and so on.

There are a number of things I think the government can do and I think we’d both agree probably that stamp duty is the main… The 3% levy on stamp duty. The reason they did it was to slow down the London market. Well, my goodness, they’ve achieved that. But unfortunately, what they’ve also done is slow down the rest of the investment market as well.

I think if there was going to be a budget, which there was going to be, I think that’s one of the issues and one of the things the Chancellor of the Exchequer might’ve lightened up on a little bit. Not completely, but I think he might’ve done something. Paul.

Paul Mahoney:                  I agree. I think anything to incentivize more supply because in all of the major cities across the UK, there is an under supply of properties. The government announced recently there’s a requirement for 300,000 new properties per annum and the average per annum for the past 10 years has [crosstalk 00:21:06] 150.

John Howard:                    230, 220.

Paul Mahoney:                  I think it was 230 last year or thereabouts, but as an average, I think it was [crosstalk 00:21:12] less than that.

John Howard:                    I think they’re aiming for 300,000 but they actually probably need more. This is the truth, but they’re aiming for 300,000.

Paul Mahoney:                  I think where landlords get a bad name is that they are taking properties from potential first time buyers or potential owner occupiers and maybe that is the case in some cases but where that isn’t the case is if they’re investing their money in new builds because landlords buying, especially [off plan 00:21:36] properties help new builds get off the ground.

John Howard:                    Yeah, they do.

Paul Mahoney:                  They help more supply occur and we mentioned Australia just now. There is a policy in Australia where they do incentivize landlords to buy new and the incentive is that you’re able to depreciate part of the value of the property over the first ten years. You don’t get that with secondhand properties and that encourages landlords to buy new properties because there are tax benefits to it.

John Howard:                    But Paul, do you then get a two tier market? The help to buy scheme has actually created a bit of two tier market as it is. Do you think that would create a bigger one?

Paul Mahoney:                  I just think there needs to be some form of incentive to drive the private rental sector’s money toward new build properties where they are needed.

Stephen Galpin:                But you know, we’ve got a situation in London where prices just seem to escalate no matter what.

John Howard:                    They have come down a bit the last two years.

Stephen Galpin:                A little bit, but I just had an email earlier on today that just came through to my phone and it was from one of the very big agencies.

John Howard:                    One of your mates.

Stephen Galpin:                And it said, “Real big announcement, we’ve actually just put on the market six properties at less than 1.6 million pounds”, as if it’s some kind of amazing achievement.

John Howard:                    It is in your world.

Stephen Galpin:                When we’re talking about stamp duty, each one of those properties would be paying, what, around about 120, 125 thousand pounds stamp duty.

John Howard:                    When you think about it, it’s bonkers.

Stephen Galpin:                Of unfundable money.

John Howard:                    Exactly. I mean, I’d quite like to move house myself but the stamp duty kills it for me. I might as well spend a bit more money on the house I’ve got actually than I should be… It stops all sorts of people moving.

Stephen Galpin:                One of the things that we championed early on Property TV earlier in the year was the reversal of stamp duty being charged not to the buyer but to the seller. Of course the downside of that is the seller will automatically say, “Boo, I paid stamp duty going in.” Well, that’s all right. You can handle that because you can just credit that against the stamp duty on going out. But at least it would be fundable.

John Howard:                    I think the fundable thing is… Actually, was that your idea?

Stephen Galpin:                Yes.

John Howard:                    Well, actually that’s quite a good idea. [inaudible 00:23:46] about you Paul. What I would say on that is that it’ll take time to work and in the [inaudible 00:23:53] it’s not working, the agents and people trying to sell are bleeding. It will take time for people to accept it. “Well, I didn’t used to have to pay it and now I have.” Well, that’s life and it just takes a bit of time for the market to adjust probably. But I think that’s a relatively good idea.

Paul Mahoney:                  The cash that has to go into stamp duty is obviously a barrier to entry.

John Howard:                    You can’t borrow it, that’s the problem. You can’t borrow the money. If you could borrow it, that would be different.

Paul Mahoney:                  That is part of the beauty of the help to buy that you mentioned.

John Howard:                    Yes.

Paul Mahoney:                  Obviously first time buyers get a concession but then if it for example is over that 300,000 concession mark, a lot of developers are paying for the stamp duty.

John Howard:                    Yeah, well they are, they’re trying to but of course a lot of [inaudible 00:24:33] won’t allow them to do that. They’re saying it’s incentive, it needs to come off the value of the price of the place. It’s crazy but you can sort of understand it.

Stephen Galpin:                All right, gents, I’m going to end this conversation with something sort of very simplistic, I think, if you like. I’ve had a lot of agents this week tell me that the London market’s really picking up and their viewings are getting up and up and up. Do you know what? I think there’s a very technical word for this sudden surge of interest and it’s called boredom.

Paul Mahoney:                  Yes.

Stephen Galpin:                I think people are bored with talking about Brexit-

Paul Mahoney:                  Brexit fatigue.

John Howard:                    I have to say [crosstalk 00:25:08] I’m also very suspicious at the time of year and what’s about to happen and so on. If it was early next year, I might believe them.

Stephen Galpin:                All right. Okay, well that’s all we’ve got time for today so big thank you to my guests Paul Mahoney and John Howard.

John Howard:                    Pleasure.

Stephen Galpin:                Thank you both very much, gents. See you again next time on Property Question Time.

Video:                                 Property is a great investment option, but it’s one of the largest purchasers that you’ll ever make. As individuals, we’re all limited by our resources and regardless of our experience, knowledge or time, we can achieve much more with the help of a qualified team and extra resources being available.

Nova Financial specialize in assisting clients to achieve financial freedom through property investment. With over 100 years of experience, we shape your family’s future. To invest in property with absolute confidence, call us on 0203 8000 600 or visit nova.financial.

John Howard:                    Hi, I’m John Howard and I’m known as the property expert. The reason for this is over the last 40 odd years, I’ve bought and sold over three and a half thousand properties and I’m still going. I’m delighted to pass on my vast experience and knowledge to you through my property seminars that are taking place across the UK this year. To know more, please go to johnhowardpropertyexpert.co.uk.

Nicholas Wallwo:             I’m Nicholas Wallwork, businessman, investor, real estate developer and entrepreneur. In my book Investing in International Real Estate for Dummies, I teach you specialist strategies you can use to build wealth and create an income through property and real estate investing anywhere in the world. I can steer you away from the common pitfalls and help you choose which investment strategy is right for you. This book will tell you all you need to know to grow a profitable real estate portfolio.

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Video:                                 Meet the Author is a brand new miniseries involving leading experts in the property industry, including mentors, developers, property lawyers, and other industry experts who share insightful stories about their journey and their books. Each book is compiled by authors with years of valuable experience, tips, and observations providing you with new knowledge about the property industry. To find out more, visit the website property-tv.co.uk/library.

Stephen Galpin:                Hello and welcome to Property TV. I’m Stephen Galpin, host of Property Question Time. We’ve completed the filming of series one, over 260 successful episodes. We’re now about to film series two. The difference? Well, we’re going to be filming in our new studio adjacent to the Canary Wharf development. Keep those questions coming in to us, keep our panelists, our experts busy and we hope you enjoy the new series as much as you did the last one.

 

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Property TV – Property Question Time – S2 EP 4 – John Howard, Trevor Leggett and Paul Mahoney
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