Property TV - Property Question Time - S1 Ep 206 - Andy Wood, Simon Zutshi and Paul Mahoney - Nova

Property TV – Property Question Time – S1 Ep 206 – Andy Wood, Simon Zutshi and Paul Mahoney

Stephen Galpin: Hello and welcome to Property Question Time. This is the program where you can have your property related questions answered by our team of experts. I’m Stephen Galpin and with me today are, Andy Wood, director of ETC Tax, welcome.

Andy Wood: Hello.

Stephen Galpin: Paul Mahoney, founder and CEO of Nova Financial Group and now author.

Paul Mahoney: Stephen.

Stephen Galpin: Okay, and Simon Zutshi, founder of Property Investors Network.

Simon Zutshi: Hi, Stephen.

Stephen Galpin: And author too, I think.

Simon Zutshi: Indeed.

Stephen Galpin: Right, welcome, gents. Andy, going to go to you first and your question is, if one of my buy-to-let properties effectively loses money over a 12 month period, perhaps due to rental voids, can I offset those losses against the profit on another of my properties that I own?

Andy Wood: In short, yes, because the way the tax is dealt with is that all your properties, generally speaking, are going to fall in one big profits of business. So essentially, all the income and all the expenses of that property business are going to be brought together. So you have the ability to offset the excess of expenses against other profits, essentially.

Stephen Galpin: Okay, so simple answer then. Nothing complicated.

Andy Wood: Yeah. So, simple answer will be, yes. We have to be careful of these as you could have different types of property business and you might not have been in quite the same position.

Stephen Galpin: Well assuming all the properties are on a par, so I think what you’re saying then is if you have these held in your own personal name, they’re almost treated as one then [crosstalk 00:02:00]

Andy Wood: Correct, yes, that’s correct, yes.

Stephen Galpin: … by revenue, whereas of course in limited company they may be separated.

Andy Wood: There’s one exception there, there’s always at least one exception, isn’t there? Is where, let’s say you have a proxy and you let it to one of your mates at a mates rates, or you let them up it free of charge, and then you cannot … You can only offset that loss against any profits from that property in the future.

Stephen Galpin: Okay. Paul.

Paul Mahoney: I don’t know, I have a slightly different way of looking at it, it’s the income and the expense that contribute to your personal income, isn’t it? You know, although it’s a property business, if it’s in your own name, it’s just the income minus the expenses and [crosstalk 00:02:39] contributes to your personal income, including your employment income. So that’s the way it works when you’re [crosstalk 00:02:49].

Stephen Galpin: When somebody’s looking to finance, perhaps a portfolio, do the banks and the lenders take into account the potential voids and potential losses and [crosstalk 00:03:00]

Paul Mahoney: Stephen, I should have thought of that. Yes, it’s a very good question actually because it’s quite relevant. There’s been some changes in the market recently. Lenders look at, for portfolio landlords, so people who have more than four properties, they will look at the whole portfolio. So for example, if one is making a major loss and that drags down the profitability of the whole portfolio, that could affect the financeability of the other properties. So yes, they do. If you have less than four properties, they don’t. It’s still just about the individual property.

Stephen Galpin: And so it’s just to tax you on this, a little bit. So when a lender has blent into your portfolio, let’s assume on an individual basis, so in your own name, is there a requirement to provide them with trading accounts periodically, or not?

Paul Mahoney: If you’re a portfolio landlord, so if you have four more properties, there’s two requirements. So you need to provide a business plan and a cashflow analysis. Sometimes if you’ve got a large portfolio, and you’ve got a lender lending to you on a commercial basis, they might come in and review the portfolio every now and again. But not for most landlords. It’s mainly only when you’re remortgaging, or buying.

Stephen Galpin: Okay. All right. Anything to add, Simon?

Simon Zutshi: I mean pretty comprehensive answers there. The final thing I would say is that, a mistake that many new investors make is they buy a property, and they might not actually make any money in the first year because of the set up and things, and they think, oh, I’ve not made any money I don’t need to declare it. Well that’s a mistake. You need to always declare the income, or the loss. And then on that first property, or any properties, if there’s loss, that loss can be carried forward to future years on offset against future tax as well.

Stephen Galpin: Okay, good advice. Okay, gents, thank you. Paul, your question, I’m thinking about investing some cash that I have into property renovation on a small scale only. I’m talking about having enough cash to put down 25% deposit and enough leftover to fund the renovations. Can someone advise the best way to finance the rest of the property purchase? Is there a special type of mortgage for these kind of projects, where the process from start to finish would likely to be less than six months?

Paul Mahoney: The answer simply is, yes. Traditionally it would have been short term finance, so what’s often referred as bridging finance, where they would have had to, assuming this property isn’t habitable because they’re having to do the renovation works. If it’s not habitable, which can mean a number of different things, if it doesn’t have a kitchen or bathrooms or those sorts of things that obviously you need to be able to live in a property, it would generally be viewed as uninhabitable. And before some more specialists lenders came into the market and started providing some sort of quasi buy select products, where you can buy a property that’s uninhabitable, but you have a period of time to get it habitable. And then they’ll switch you over onto a standard buy-to-let. So there are some new products in the market that are specific fit for purpose, for what they’re looking to do.

Stephen Galpin: So would that initial finance be more expensive than the …

Paul Mahoney: Generally, yes, but it will probably be cheaper than your traditional bridging, which is quite expensive.

Stephen Galpin: Okay. Andy, would there be any different tax treatment for bridging finance versus longer term finance?

Andy Wood: No, not really. Not that I can see, no.

Stephen Galpin: Okay.

Paul Mahoney: I’d say the main reason there wouldn’t be is generally bridging, when you use bridging, you’re not generating any income. Whereas, obviously, buy-to-let mortgages you are, and therefore it’s looked at differently from a tax perspective.

Stephen Galpin: But would you be able to move the bridging finance into the catchment of your Clause 24?

Andy Wood: I mean in theory, if you had a bridging loan and you pay interest on it and you had a property and you’re generating income, you would be … The basic principle, you would be able to offset it, but then you will be into the normal restrictions. If you’re in an individual or an income tax payer, then you have to deal with Clause 25. If you’re a company you don’t.

Stephen Galpin: Okay, Simon?

Simon Zutshi: Just a final thing to add, as Paul said, traditionally you would use bridging, that’s where the new crowd funding can come into practice where there are peer-to-peer lenders who will help you fund the purchase and the development costs. You just need to put the deposit in, and then you refinance six months later once it’s all up and running. That can be really … So if you’re doing maybe a normal house into an HMO, some HMO lenders want you to have six months of experience. Well, if you don’t have it, how to get the experience? So going to a peer-to-peer lender who will help you develop that property, you then run it for six months as an HMO, that gives you the experience. You then put it into an HMO lender.

Stephen Galpin: Okay, fine. Great stuff. Well, we’ll keep you working, your question now. The probate process following my mother’s death is due to complete next month. I’m due to inherit 135,000 pounds and I’m unsure how to manage or invest this money. I’m married with two children, work full time, I don’t necessarily want to pay off the remaining 109,000 pounds of my mortgage. Each of my children, age nine and six, will also receive a monetary gift of 10K each, which I wish to save for them for when they’re older. Not sure best options. Everything seems like a minefield and is so overwhelming. Any help and advice would be gratefully received.

Simon Zutshi: Well that’s a huge question for such a short amount of time. Whenever anyone’s making any investment I think it’s really important to understand what are they trying to achieve from it? Do they want to get capital growth? Do they wat to get income? Or some combination of the two? As we’d be slightly biased, we believe property’s probably one of the best investments to make. There are other things, like do shares, but there’s some volatility there. They can just put money in the bank, which actually the rates you get these days, the money is devaluing.

Simon Zutshi: I think that some people might decide to take that money and and clear off the home mortgage, because your home mortgage is your biggest outgoing and at some point in the future you have to pay it off. And so that, for that person, could be good advice. However, if they have the aspiration of actually building a portfolio, that’s a great opportunity, use that money. A home mortgage might cost them one, 2%, they could earn a lot more money on that 135,000 by investing it into investment property.

Simon Zutshi: If they’re busy, they might want to get a property that’s as hands off as possible. They might go to a company that could source that proxy for them, managed … They’ll pay fees because of that, but they’ve got to weigh up their lifestyle and how much they want to get involved in property. It is very possible to have a full time job and have kids and still be a property investor. If you get the right kind of team around you to help you.

Stephen Galpin: Paul?

Paul Mahoney: Yeah, look, I’d obviously agree with Simon. This person doesn’t look like they wanted to have a second job, so the proof they’re going to invest in property, they probably want to do it quite passively. I’d say definitely, very, very seriously consider it. Not only because property is a good opportunity, but think about the downside. From what they’ve said, it doesn’t seem like they’ve got any investments. Yeah, that’s a big problem, because the state pension is not great and might run out, might not be there at all. So think about how you’re going to provide for yourself in the future, and that money they’ve just inherited is probably going to really help them do that if they invest it well.

Stephen Galpin: Okay. I do think this question comes up again of taking people out of their comfort zone. I mean, some people are born to handle investments, others are not.

Simon Zutshi: Very true, yes.

Stephen Galpin: So I think it’s quite importantly …

Simon Zutshi: And that’s why getting advice and help, don’t make an isolated decision. If you want to invest in property, find some friends or family who’ve done it and ask them about their experiences and see if it’s going to be right for you.

Stephen Galpin: Well, I think this program demonstrates is that there’s a myriad of ports of call for advice. So take it, I think. Okay. That’s all we’ve got time for in this half of the program. Join us again after the break.

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Commercial: The tax system has evolved significantly over recent years for property investors and developers. You may think that you and your accountant have a grip on these changes. However, unless you’re receiving specialist tax advice from a specialist tax advisory firm, then it’s unlikely to be the case. At ETC Tax, our team of highly experienced, chartered tax advisors work with private individuals and companies to deliver effective tax planning whilst meeting HMRC compliance requirements. Let us help you to meet your personal or commercial objectives in the most tax efficient manner. ETC Tax, making the complex simple.

Simon Zutshi: Hello, my name’s Simon Zutshi. I’m the author of Property Magic, which you can buy on Amazon for 12.99, or indeed get on Audible if you prefer listening to books. Now I started investing in property in 1995 and I became financially independent by the age of 32, but I made a huge number of mistakes because I learned the hard way. You don’t have to do that. I’ve explained in this book how you can make a huge amount of money investing in property when you know how to do it, and one of the secrets is working with motivated sellers; people for who the speed and search of the sale is more important than the amount of money they get.

Simon Zutshi: And we look to find people who’ve got a problem and come up with an ethical, win-win solution. I explain exactly how you do it in here. It’s a best seller. You could buy it online, as I said, however you can get a complimentary copy. All you have to do is find the number below, or go to the websites. I ask you just to pay for the postage, tell us where you want to send it in the UK and we’ll send it completely free of charge to you. Call us right now and we’ll send a book to you straight away. Learn how to invest with knowledge, invest with skill.

Stephen Galpin: Welcome back to Property Question Time, I’m Stephen Galpin and with me are Andy Wood, Paul Mahoney and Simon Zutshi. Welcome back guys. Andy, your question for this half, if I sell my portfolio of buy-to-let properties, say after five years, I’m presuming I make a capital gain on them? Can I get any tax relief against those profits if I reinvest the money in more buy-to-let properties? Sorry, there’s a little bit extra on that. They’re saying that their reasoning for asking this question is they want to keep their portfolio really up to date. So clean, fresh properties after every five years.

Andy Wood: Okay. Okay. The basic answer would be, no. There wouldn’t really be any … So when we’re talking beyond the annual exemption for capital gains tax purposes, it’s about 12,000 at the moment, that fits sort of a normal investment, residential investment portfolio. If it was a portfolio which qualified as furnished holiday lettings, then potentially you could get entrepreneurs relief on the sale, or perhaps more attuned to the question, you could potentially get rollover relief on furnished holiday lets. Which means as long as you’re reinvesting, they’re getting back into other qualifying property, then you should be … The gain will be deferred until the sale of the other furnished holiday lets.

Andy Wood: What they might also consider doing is, I think it was … Was it a portfolio of five properties?

Stephen Galpin: Five properties, yes.

Andy Wood: We’d have much more information than that, but if you could … if you could make the argument that that was a … Qualified as a business for tax purposes, you could consider incorporating the portfolio, which would be transferring it to a company. The effect, and you can get into actual [inaudible 00:15:44] if it’s a business and there would need to be some further input to determine whether it was, but once the properties are held by the company they’re deemed to have been acquired at today’s market value. So if it’s incorporated today, the company acquires them at today’s market value. And the company could then go through the process of selling some of the properties and the company wouldn’t have any gain.

Stephen Galpin: But would you incur a personal liability then at the uplifted rate of putting them in the company?

Andy Wood: Well that’s the importance of having been a business because it’s a specific relief which applies, which is often referred to as incorporation relief. What it means that you can essentially transfer the properties without there being immediate capital gain. You’d have to think about stamp duty, and particularly as an issue, but that will be a way of then taking your time and dispersing [crosstalk 00:16:37].

Stephen Galpin: If you’re a director of the company as well as the individual transferring, could you not exempt yourself from stamp duty without, same as a group sale?

Andy Wood: No. No. So stamp duty would apply and the basic position would be because you’re transferring it to the company that you own. There will be a market value, essentially chargeable consideration there. But in terms of capital gains tax, yeah, you could weigh up the SDLT versus the capital gains tax savings.

Stephen Galpin: Okay.

Andy Wood: Clearly, you’d need to get some further advice.

Paul Mahoney: My question would be, why are they selling?

Stephen Galpin: Well I think they did make that clear is, they want to seem to churn the properties every five years to make sure they’ve got really up to date property.

Paul Mahoney: They could paint them. Or just some light renovation.

Stephen Galpin: Do you know that’s the best answer we’ve had with that.

Paul Mahoney: There’s a lot you can do to a property rather than selling, because selling is very expensive.

Stephen Galpin: Who needs an accountant?

Paul Mahoney: It’s relevant though because selling is expensive because of the tax. You pay agent fees and capital gains tax, which is a big chunk of what you’ve built. So firstly, why are they selling? They’ve mentioned about having fresh properties every five years. They could do a little bit of light refurb or they could even build on the portfolio, you know, remortgage the five and buy five more, and therefore they’re still offering new properties every five years. But they’re actually building on what they’ve got as well.

Stephen Galpin: Yes, it’s a very important point you raised, isn’t it? It’s the in and out costs of buying and selling these days are huge, you know, agency fees are huge. You’ve got stamp duty at certain levels with premiums, it’s quite expensive. Simon?

Simon Zutshi: I completely agree. I’d hold on to them, because if you don’t sell them, you never pay the capital gains.

Stephen Galpin: Right.

Simon Zutshi: And if you die, the capital gains is wiped out because they want to charge you inheritance tax to the state. So there’s other things you can do. But I would, you know, the thought of selling five parties every five years and having to get another five, the time and hassle as well as the extra cost is just crazy. It’s got to be more cost effective … As long as they’re good in the first place to just refurb them, freshen them up, which the houses need that after five years. Flats need that after five years, anyway.

Stephen Galpin: Yes. And I would do much in the retail, costs me an awful lot less than just the professional fees anyway.

Simon Zutshi: And actually, if they’re selling them in an unrefurbed, so they’re not going to get the best price anyway. So that’s a bit of a short sighted policy I think.

Paul Mahoney: I think a lot of people overlook the tax effectiveness of remortgaging. It’s effectively tax free money that you’re taking from your portfolio and doing with it what you like. Well you obviously can use it to buy more properties or you can use it for pretty much whatever you want, as long as the is okay with it. But it’s effectively releasing cash from your portfolio without having to sell anything.

Stephen Galpin: But if you do that and you do it, presumably on the basis of evaluation, evaluation’s gone up, are you not letting yourself in for for a tax bill there? Putting the properties in at a higher level?

Andy Wood: Into … ?

Stephen Galpin: Into the company.Because, if you’ve revalued them within the company and there’s a, let’s say a 20% gain on them, you’ve taken out a new mortgage at that higher level. Can revenue not come to you and say, well there you are, you see?

Andy Wood: Well if you were transferring them you’d want them to be transferred as high a value as possible for capital gains tax purposes. For stamp duty purposes, you wouldn’t necessarily want that outcome. So it’s difficult, the objectives and, you know, whether it’s a sensible direction aside, even advising purely from a tax point of view, there’s so many factors and permutations that it’s difficult to do.

Stephen Galpin: The same thing again, important to have you a way in and way out, I think. Okay, Paul, your question, I need to remortgage my current and main house, I do own another which is mortgage free and rented out privately. What questions are the mortgage lenders likely to ask over the phone or face to face? Is it better going through a broker? In cases like this?

Paul Mahoney: it’s always better to go through a broker and you know not for any self-serving purposes whatsoever, because if you go down and speak to your local bank, they’ll probably be a high street bank firstly, and will have the most restrictive lending criteria of all the lenders in the market. But they’ll also only have their criteria and their set number of products. So they might say no to you or they might offer you a product which might not be the best for you. You could go and speak with 10 banks, but that’s still only 10 of the many more that’s available. Whereas when you speak with a broker, a good independent broker that knows what they’re doing, has experience, has done what you’re looking to do quite a lot before, they’ll know quite quickly what are the best lenders for you. Firstly, most brokers have software where they plug in your details and plug in the property details.

Paul Mahoney: So even if they don’t know what they’re doing, they’ll have a better idea than you would as an individual. But if they do, then they’ll find you a much better product than you’ll find on your own. The other thing to consider is that a lot of products are only available through brokers. About half the market is only available through brokers. So even if you spoke to every single lender, about every single product as an individual, you only get half the market. So that’s really important to consider. Some other things, so they mentioned they’re remortgaging their home to buy another property?

Stephen Galpin: I think that’s essentially it.

Paul Mahoney: And they have a buy-to-let also.

Stephen Galpin: Yes.

Paul Mahoney: One question will be, why they’re doing it against the home and not against the buy-to-let? So it’s more difficult to get a residential mortgage than it is to get a buy-to-let mortgage. It’s also tax deductible, somewhat, to get a buy-to-let mortgage. So, if they’re getting a mortgage against their home, that’s going to be very much based upon their income and the income might limit how much they can borrow. Most lenders will go to four to five times your income, but you know, depending on how much they already owe that property and how much they want to release, that might impact things. Also their credit rating. Whereas with the buy-to-let, because it’s considered a commercial mortgage, it’s much more about the property that they’re mortgaging against than it is about their personal situation. And also because of that, as long as the property’s giving a decent rent, they’re probably more likely to get that mortgage than they are to get the residential one.

Stephen Galpin: Okay. Paul, one question we have sent in to is quite quite a lot. It’s a question about brokers. So when you receive a commission from a lender, are those commissions pretty standard? Because the influences from the questions is, how do I trust the broker is really giving me the right advice, as opposed to the most profitable advice?

Paul Mahoney: Yeah, it’s a good question. That the commissions aren’t standard, they vary a bit. But in saying that, the commissions for resi and buy-to-let mortgages aren’t necessarily high either. So you know, in my experience, you don’t necessarily want to go to a free broker, because it obviously stands to reason if a broker is not charging you a fee, they need to be getting their money from somewhere. And most good brokers that I know charge fair fees, but it means that because they’re charging a fee, they can be more objective in their advice, because it doesn’t matter if they’re dealing with other lenders that’s giving them a very small commission, which is disclosed anyway, because they’ve already got a fee from you. So I think some people would just look for free brokers, but quite often they are the people chasing commissions, or very big companies that … You might be dealing with a young kid that doesn’t really know what they’re doing versus good brokers who, in general, do charge a fee, but not ridiculous fees either.

Stephen Galpin: Simon, your question, I have a tenant who signed a six month tenancy renewal until the Autumn. They’ve lived in the house for nearly 10 years. I don’t want the tenant to continue in the tenancy beyond their current agreement. Will I need to issue a Section 21 telling them that I want them to quit? And if so, how much notice do I need to give them?

Simon Zutshi: Okay, so a normal standard six month AST contract, assured short term tenancy contract, the tenant needs to give just one month’s notice to leave after the six months. So if they want to leave at the beginning of month five they’d give a notice to leave at the end of the six months. But the landlord needs to give two months notice. So if they wanted, and it has to be a full two months, you got to be really, when you do a Section 21 you’ve got to be very careful, the dates use on there. So they would need to let the tenant know two months before the end of the six months to move them on.

Stephen Galpin: So they can issue the Section 21 at four months then?

Simon Zutshi: Correct. Yeah, but it’s four, with two months notice. Okay? And then at the end of a six months contract, it goes on to a rolling periodic renewal, but it’s still the same thing applies. You still have to give two months notice to the tenant. They only have to give you one months, though. So it is very much in the favor of the tenants. You mentioned that they’d been in there for 10 years, now it’s good though on an AST contract, one thing to be careful of, a mistake people make when they buy properties with sitting tenants, they have sometime bought what’s called a protective tenancy and they’ve been in there for very long time and you cannot increase the rent. You cannot get rid of them. And often low properties are very, very cheap because they’re very difficult to mortgage. So just be aware of those.

Simon Zutshi: But that’s not the case here, which is good, because they’re on an AST contract. So yeah, you just issue them the notice. We don’t know much about the situation here, but I’d want to know, if they’d been in for 10 years, they’re probably a good tenant, hopefully looked after. Unless they’re selling the property, I’d wonder why they want to get rid of the tenants. Because actually I’ve got tenants who have been a very long time, I’m really happy to have them there because it’s a consistent tenant. They’re paying, you know, if someone’s been in 10 years, if they get that tenant out and they want to rent to someone else, they’re more definitely going to have to refurb that property.

Simon Zutshi: Because after 10 years there’ll be quite … you know, bit of wear and tear on it. The current tenant might be quite happy with the way it is, but a new tenant probably would want a new, enhanced property. That’s going to take some time to do. There’s going to be some void period, so, you know, sometimes people think, well this tenant’s on a very low rent and I haven’t really put it up. I would say, well unless they are bad tenants, which is unlikely if they’ve been there 10 years, I’d chat with them, say, hey look, it’s been the same for a while. Can we put the rent up? And that might be more cost effective than kicking them out and redoing it and putting new tenants in.

Stephen Galpin: Two things about what you said. I’ve seen before in the past some agents will attach a Section 21 to the original lease agreement and have the tenant sign it [crosstalk 00:27:07] on day one. But I’ve always said that-

Simon Zutshi: I don’t think they can do that anymore.

Stephen Galpin: No, I’ve heard district judges say that’s really [crosstalk 00:27:13] very bad practice.

Simon Zutshi: Used to, a lot of agents used to do that, but I don’t think they’re supposed to do that anymore.

Stephen Galpin: Okay. On the changes of Section 21 that the government are proposing are to …

Simon Zutshi: Well they’re now talking about having much longer tenancies and not being able to get rid of tenants. But actually I think that’s a very ill-advised strategy for the simple reason that sometimes the landlord, they need to sell the property. Maybe they’ve come to the end of their mortgage term, they can’t remortgage it. Lenders like to have a six month AST because if the landlord doesn’t pay the rent, they can get rid of the tenant. So where’s that going to leave lenders? I think it’s a very, very dangerous policy the government are talking about.

Stephen Galpin: Okay.

Paul Mahoney: Yeah, I agree. Also, I’ve noticed since that’s being discussed, a lot of people think it’s already a thing, and it’s not. It’s literally just been mentioned. And it was something that will probably take a long time to come to fruition. I’ve had people ask me, well does that mean I can’t get rid of my tenant ever? And it’s just literally something that’s been mentioned. So don’t get too worried about that until it’s actually starting to happen.

Stephen Galpin: Well that’s a good note to finish on. Thank you very much, Paul. Thank you to all my guests, Andy Woods, Paul Mahoney and Simon Zutshi. Thank you all very much for your contributions. That’s all we have time for today. Join us next time on Property Question Time.

Speaker 7: If you have any questions you’d like to send to the experts at Property Question Time, you can submit them via our website, on social media or email us on info@propertytelevision.co.uk.

Commercial: The tax system has evolved significantly over recent years for property investors and developers. You may think that you and your accountant have a grip on these changes. However, unless you’re receiving specialist tax advice from a specialist tax advisory firm, then it’s unlikely to be the case. At ETC Tax, our team of highly experienced, chartered tax advisors work with private individuals and companies to deliver effective tax planning whilst meeting HMRC compliance requirements. Let us help you to meet your personal or commercial objectives in the most tax efficient manner. ETC Tax, making the complex simple.

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