Proper Wealth - S2 Episode 2: Crowdfunding - Richard Bush (CrowdLords) - Nova

Proper Wealth – S2 Episode 2: Crowdfunding – Richard Bush (CrowdLords)

Paul Mahoney:                  Welcome to Proper Wealth with me, Paul Mahoney. The show where we discuss all things wealth creation with a focus on property. Today we’re discussing crowdfunding for property development. And joining me today is Richard Bush from CrowdLords. Thanks for joining us, Richard.

Richard Bush:                    It’s a pleasure, Paul.

Paul Mahoney:                  So talking about crowdfunding for property development, perhaps if we can start relatively simple and building complexity from there. First off, what is crowdfunding?

Richard Bush:                    Okay, well crowdfunding’s a, I’d say relatively new thing. It’s probably been going for about 10 years. It started off with people almost donating money to charitable causes. And then it moved into people … You’ve heard of Kickstarter?

Paul Mahoney:                  Yeah.

Richard Bush:                    So people essentially pre-buy products before they’re made. And that way, they’re funding businesses to create new products. And then it evolved into business funding. So Crowdcube and Seedrs are the two biggest crowdfunding platforms in the UK. And they raised equity for small businesses that enabled them to grow, and people get a share of the profit. Or, what they’re waiting for is a big exit at the end. And that’s where crowdfunding came from.

Paul Mahoney:                  Okay. So kind of what it says on the [inaudible 00:01:50].

Richard Bush:                    It is pretty well what it says in the [inaudible 00:01:51], yeah.

Paul Mahoney:                  Money raised from the crowd. Okay. And how does that now relate to property?

Richard Bush:                    Okay. Well, many of the downsides of business crowdfunding are addressed by crowdfunding in property. So first of all, if you are crowdfunding in a business, one of the biggest challenges is how much are you paying for that share? And that’s based on the valuation of the business. In businesses, there’s no fixed way of valuing. So one of the main complaints of crowdfunding is that there’s no real value in the business that you’re investing in. With property, you know what the value is. So it addresses that.

The other is, there’s no real exit until somebody sells the business. Whereas with property, there is an exit when you sell the property.

Paul Mahoney:                  Right, okay. So it gives people a bit more certainty around the value.

Richard Bush:                    Yeah.

Paul Mahoney:                  It gives them, in a lot of cases, a set exit, or at least the ability to [crosstalk 00:02:40] secondary market, perhaps.

Richard Bush:                    It gives the potential of an exit. Yep.

Paul Mahoney:                  On an asset that, as you say, has a value whilst still being that crowdfunding in the true sense of the word as we discussed.

Richard Bush:                    Yeah. So you’re probably familiar with business crowdfunding. Crowdcube and Seedrs are the biggest that most people know. And what they do is they raise money for small businesses, growing businesses, by selling shares to everyday investors. And they’re unlisted shares, which means they can only be sold if there’s a significant exit. And that’s one of the downsides. And the other downside is you never know what value you’re buying into that business. So basically, the people selling shares can set the price at whatever they like. And that’s what put me off business crowdfunding. Even though, in principle, I think it’s a great idea that you can help small businesses grow by buying shares in a business that owns the property.

The difference between property crowdfunding and business crowdfunding one, is the value is set by a qualified [inaudible 00:03:39], and it’s a standard value that everyone accepts. And two, there’s typically an exit at the end. You can sell the property at any time, because you know what the value is; or, you can refinance it and rent it out. So there’s always a way of getting your money back eventually when the crowd decides to exit.

Paul Mahoney:                  Right. Yeah, okay. So a bit more certainty around the valuation and the exit.

Richard Bush:                    And an exit.

Paul Mahoney:                  And I suppose the problem that you mentioned before about the unlisted companies. So generally, you’re only getting an exit is if they list or if they sell.

Richard Bush:                    Yeah.

Paul Mahoney:                  Which is a big maybe, isn’t it?

Richard Bush:                    Absolutely, yeah.

Paul Mahoney:                  Whereas, I suppose property kind of takes that maybe away a little bit.

Richard Bush:                    Yeah.

Paul Mahoney:                  Okay. So that’s what attracted you to getting involved in crowdfunding with relation to property. Can we talk a bit about the evolution of crowdfunding in relation to property and where that’s going?

Richard Bush:                    And most of us now operate within the development sector where, essentially ,we’re funding developers with equity or debt in order them to build out a development and then we share in the profits, or they pay interest on those funds provided.

Paul Mahoney:                  Right, okay. And okay, so that’s the offering now, that most of you have … Is there any other iterations of that? Or a spectrum of how that’s offered?

Richard Bush:                    Yeah, I think so. So there are a number of platforms still doing buy-to-let. They tend to do single properties, are smaller, the returns are much lower because the returns in buy-to-let are typically lower. And then you have some people who are doing a build-to-rent, where essentially, you’re funding the development, but it’s a longer term investment.

Paul Mahoney:                  Okay. And so far as why someone would use crowdfunding; if we look at that from both sides, so obviously the money being raised from the crowd. First, why would a individual investor be interested in investing in a crowdfunding platform?

Richard Bush:                    Yeah. The main thing, obviously, is the return. So with a buy-to-let investment, you’ll typically get between 6% to 10% per annum return. It’s a relatively low risk investment, and that’s where most people start.

Paul Mahoney:                  Yeah.

Richard Bush:                    Where we operate, the returns are typically between 10% and as high as 30%. And that’s attractive for people that are more sophisticated. So we typically target our investments and the people that operate like us, are targeted at higher net worth, more sophisticated investors.

Paul Mahoney:                  Okay. So people can understand that the risks they’re taking for that reward.

Richard Bush:                    Yeah. And actually, one thing that’s really important is that they have to make the decision to invest. So we don’t do any selling. It’s our job to present the information, the platform story is to make investments available. And then the investors have to decide where to invest. And so it requires a degree of experience and your own due diligence.

Paul Mahoney:                  Yeah, okay. That makes sense. And the other side of things; why would the … In a crowdfunding platform funding either a development or a property developer, why would they use the crowdfunding route?

Richard Bush:                    That’s the main driver for the whole sector. So P2P lending and crowdfunding started because after the crash, the banks stopped lending and stopped investing in businesses. So essentially, the crowd are replacing the role of the bank. And so the demand is from the developer. Most developers have a certain amount of capital, but not enough to add to a bank loan to build out the development, so they go elsewhere. And traditionally, they’ve gone to high net worth individuals who might put in £1 million or £2 million pounds themselves in a joint venture agreement, but that’s hard to find. If you find one person who’s going to fund you in that way, then that’s great, and you hold onto them. But not many people can do that.

They’re looking for the equivalent. And we provide the equivalent by people working together to fund a particular development.

Paul Mahoney:                  Yeah, okay. So essentially, that ready-made investor, if you like, but they don’t necessarily have to go out and find that individual and establish a relationship with them and all the things that go along with finding that particular top investor.

Richard Bush:                    Absolutely.

Paul Mahoney:                  Okay. That’s interesting. We spoke, in the most recent episode, about the high net worth mortgage market and also residential mortgages. And as a lot of people were assuming, I think just because of all the uncertainty in the market at the moment, that Brexit was affecting that.

Richard Bush:                    Right.

Paul Mahoney:                  Whereas, in fact, it isn’t, really. And in fact, there’s probably too many lenders in the market and too much appetite to lend from a lender’s perspective.

Richard Bush:                    Yeah.

Paul Mahoney:                  How have you seen that from the development lending side of things? Has the political uncertainty affected anything?

Richard Bush:                    I think it has. I mean, any uncertainty affects people’s confidence to make a decision. And that’s whether they’re lending, whether they’re buying. It just negates the confidence of action. So the first thing is, it is harder to get a loan from a bank for development than it would have been three years ago.

Paul Mahoney:                  Yeah.

Richard Bush:                    The other thing is, what they do now, rather than lending 75% of the cost, they’ll only lend 65%. So that extra 10% has got to be found from somewhere. So we often play that role; is replacing what the bank would have provided, pre-Brexit.

Paul Mahoney:                  Yeah. The reason I ask is, I met with a fairly substantial developer in Liverpool last week, and they told me that the development lending market was being affected.

Richard Bush:                    Right.

Paul Mahoney:                  That there was a lot of lenders a lot more wary about lending on developments. And the reason he was given was that any potential impacts of Brexit might impact the property market.

Richard Bush:                    Yeah.

Paul Mahoney:                  And I thought it was very interesting that a development lender would have that view, whereas the actual end user lenders don’t seem to have that view at all.

Richard Bush:                    That’s interesting, yeah.

Paul Mahoney:                  So those two things that seem to conflict. And I would assume that based from what he told me that your traditional development lenders pulling back a little bit would mean that the crowdfunding option would become a little bit more attractive to more of those types of developers seeking funding.

Richard Bush:                    It is, completely. And I guess the difference is that on a typical mortgage, it’s a longer term loan.

Paul Mahoney:                  Yeah.

Richard Bush:                    So there’s time for the value of the property to go up and down, and over time it will go up. Whereas with development funding, they want their money back within 18 months, two years, three years. And if the market, when they come to sell, is not strong enough, then there is a risk that the development funder will lose their funds.

Paul Mahoney:                  Okay, very good point. So I suppose that the development lenders are more concerned about short term risk, whereas the mortgage lenders are willing to take on that risk, even if it’s a longer term.

Richard Bush:                    Absolutely.

Paul Mahoney:                  Okay, that makes a lot of sense.

Richard Bush:                    Yeah.

Paul Mahoney:                  Okay. Peer-to-peer versus crowdfunding. What’s the difference?

Richard Bush:                    Okay, so peer-to-peer is essentially me lending to you.

Paul Mahoney:                  Yeah.

Richard Bush:                    So it’s a direct transaction. It’s a direct contract between the investor and the developer. And if I was a developer raising money from a peer-to-peer platform, I would probably get money from, perhaps 1,000 investors putting in a small amount of money.

In crowdfunding, there is a third party that arranges that investment, whether it’s debt or equity.

Paul Mahoney:                  Okay.

Richard Bush:                    And the contract is typically with the third party funded by the investors. So there is an intermediary between the lender and the borrower, and that’s the main difference. There are some other technical differences around regulation and so on, but that’s the main maintenance.

Paul Mahoney:                  Okay. So it seems there’d be a little bit more protection in place on the crowdfunding side than the peer-to-peer?

Richard Bush:                    I think it’s more … It attracts a different type of investor. So a peer-to-peer investor; the key thing about peer-to-peer is diversification. So it’s been proven by all the leading peer-to-peer platforms that if you spread your money across more than 100 loans, you’ll maximize your returns.

Paul Mahoney:                  Right.

Richard Bush:                    Because you’ve built in the fact that one or two of them might well default.

Paul Mahoney:                  Yeah.

Richard Bush:                    In crowdfunding, that’s unusual. So what people typically do is spread their money, and we encourage it, across 10 or so developments, so much less diversification. But they tend to invest much more.

Paul Mahoney:                  Okay.

Richard Bush:                    And what that means is that the investor has to do their own due diligence. It’s really important that they take the time to decide what to invest in. Whereas in peer-to-peer, it’s typically auto invest. So you load up your £5,000 pounds to the platform, and the platform was spread that over 100 or more loans, whereas with us-

Paul Mahoney:                  Okay. So it’s just a slightly different approach?

Richard Bush:                    It’s slightly different, but it’s quite a critical difference, in that you, as an investor, it’s really important that you do your due diligence. Our job is to provide you with that information. Whereas, in peer-to-peer, our job is really to provide you that opportunity and you would just take it without really looking at it.

Paul Mahoney:                  Join us after the break for more on crowdfunding for property development.

Speaker 3:                          Property is a great investment option, but it’s one of the largest purchases that you’ll ever make. As individuals, we’re all limited by our resources. And regardless of our experience, knowledge, or time, we can achieve much more with the help of a qualified team and extra resources being available. Nova Financial specialize in assisting clients to achieve financial freedom through property investment. With over 100 years of experience, we shape your family’s future. To invest in property with absolute confidence, call us on 0203 8000 600, or visit nova.financial.

Speaker 4:                          Property is a favored asset for many UK investors, but changes in tax legislation have taken the shine of buy-to-let as the investment of choice. Many are turning to crowdfunding platforms like CrowdLords to build a balanced property portfolio. And with investments available from only £250, it makes spreading the risk easy. Thanks to the innovative finance ISA, you can invest up to £20,000 each year without paying tax on the returns. And you can transfer your existing ISA balances to CrowdLords at no charge. Visit crowdlords.com/ifisa to find out more and to download your free guide.

John Howard:                    Hi, I’m John Howard, and I’m known as the Property Expert. The reason for this is over the last 40 odd years, I’ve bought and sold over three and a half thousand properties, and I’m still going. I’m delighted to pass on my vast experience and knowledge to you through my property seminars that are taking place across the UK this year. To know more, please go to johnhowardpropertyexpert.co.uk.

Speaker 6:                          The tax system has evolved significantly over recent years for property investors and developers. You may think that you and your accountant have a grip on these changes. However, unless you are receiving specialist tax advice from a specialist tax advisory firm, then it’s unlikely to be the case. At ETC Tax, our team of highly experienced chartered tax advisors work with private individuals and companies to deliver effective tax planning whilst meeting HMRC compliance requirements. Let us help you to meet your personal or commercial objectives in the most tax efficient manner. ETC Tax, making the complex simple.

Stephen Galpin:                Hello, and welcome to Property TV. I’m Stephen Galpin, host of Property Question Time. We’ve completed the filming of series one, over 260 successful episodes. We’re now about to film series two. The difference? Well, we’re going to be filming in our new studio, adjacent to the Canary Wharf development. Keep those questions coming in to us. Keep our panelists, our experts, busy. And we hope you enjoy the new series as much as you did the last one.

Speaker 8:                          Meet the Author is a brand new mini-series involving leading experts in the property industry, including mentors, developers, property lawyers and other industry experts who share insightful stories about their journey and their books. Each book is compiled by authors with years of valuable experience, tips and observations, providing you with new knowledge about the property industry. To find out more, visit the website property-gv.co.uk/library.

Paul Mahoney:                  Welcome back to Proper Wealth with me, Paul Mahoney. We’re talking about crowdfunding for property development. And with me is Richard. So before the break, we spoke quite a lot about what crowdfunding was, where it’s come from, where it’s going, how it relates to property in general, and also property development.

So I’m going to pose a question to you now. Let’s say that I am an investor and I want to get involved in crowdfunding. I want to invest some money. What is some of the personal due diligence that I should do when it comes to selecting a platform and a particular product or a range of products?

Richard Bush:                    Okay. Well the first decision, I guess, is which platforms that you’re going to use. And most investors will use more than one platform.

Paul Mahoney:                  Okay.

Richard Bush:                    And there are a range of platforms out there as we mentioned earlier, that offer different things. So the first thing is to check that you’re comfortable, that you can trust the platform. Trust is probably the most important thing. At the end of the day, you’re putting your money into an unknown online place and it’s therefore important that you can trust the people that you’re investing through. The best way to do that is to talk to other people. And most platforms have review sites like Trustpilot or Google Reviews, and you can read those. Finally, you should go and meet people. I always recommend that you go meet the people behind the platform.

Paul Mahoney:                  Right. Okay, so getting to … So that’s in choosing a platform, so doing your research on the platform, meeting the people behind it. And so far as the actual products on the platform, aside from what it says on the brochure, is there anything else to look at?

Richard Bush:                    Yes, there is. So we haven’t mentioned that there are two ways that you can invest in crowdfunding. One is as debt, and the other is in shares in the company that owns the property as equities. So debt versus equity. Essentially, the debt is lower risk, but lower return than equity. It’s secured lending, so your money is invested and a first or second charge is placed on the property and that secures your funds. If something goes wrong, the property is sold and your capital is recovered.

With equity, it’s different. So normally,. equity is the last money to go into the development and it’s at the highest risk and therefore the return is higher. But because the return is higher, it can be very attractive. So the first thing to decide is whether you want to put that particular money in debt or in equity. And going from one to the other increases the risk. That’s something really important to remember.

Paul Mahoney:                  Okay, right. And I suppose that’s determined by the person’s risk profile, their level of funds. And also, I suppose, how wealthy they are, which does tie into their risk profile. Can they afford to lose the money if something goes wrong? Because things can go wrong, can’t they?

Richard Bush:                    Absolutely.

Paul Mahoney:                  And there is a level of risk involved. And that ties quite nicely into my next question, so far as types of returns. So income versus growth, how does that relate to crowdfunding-type platforms?

Richard Bush:                    So normally on the crowdfunding platforms, you get your money when you exit. So there are some that pay, and we started and others like us started in buy-to-let, and they paid an income dividend every quarter.

Paul Mahoney:                  Right.

Richard Bush:                    But that tends to be a relatively low amount. Normally, you get your funds at the end of the term when you exit the investment. And if it’s a debt investment, you get paid a fixed amount and it’s paid as interest and it’s taxed as income. If you’re doing an equity investment, then where possible, the platforms tend to pay that as a capital gain because it’s more tax efficient. And again, you get it at the exit as a capital gain, you declare it as a capital gain. So there is a tax element, as well as a when you received the funds aspect to it.

Paul Mahoney:                  Okay. And what level of regulation is involved? Again, as I’m looking at through my investor glasses, why can I be confident that I should give my money to a crowdfunding platform?

Richard Bush:                    Well, all the platforms are regulated by the FCA and have been for a number years. But that in itself, I don’t think there’s enough. Like we said earlier, at the end of the day, you are trusting people with your money. Even though they have to behave and we have to behave in a certain way because of the FCA regulations, the regulations only go so far. So it’s good what the FCA do, but it probably could be more, and we would encourage it to be more. They’ve made changes recently. There are more restrictions about what they say, what we say. But the regulation is there, really, to protect you.

Paul Mahoney:                  Okay. So the platforms are regulated, so obviously you need to check that the platform you’re looking at is, and that they’re ticking all of those boxes and therefore that will give you the peace of mind that at the very least they’re fit and proper, I suppose.

Richard Bush:                    And what they say is true. That’s probably the most important aspect of regulation, is financial promotion. So what they say is true, or can be proved to be true and therefore you can trust what they say. And that’s really important.

Paul Mahoney:                  And so we spoke about the risks involved and things to look out for. Other risks mainly about the opportunity or other risks with the platform, as well?

Richard Bush:                    Development is complex and there are lots of things that can go wrong from the planning risk to the construction risk to the sales risk. So the more experienced the developer, the more experienced the platform, the more those risks can be managed.

Paul Mahoney:                  Okay.

Richard Bush:                    One thing that people shouldn’t do is invest in development, expecting it to go smoothly to finish on time every time, and for you to get the returns that you expected. You will get less, you will get slightly more, it will be longer, it will be shorter, but it’s quite rare for things to go catastrophically wrong.

Paul Mahoney:                  Yeah. Okay. So essentially, you just need to be aware of those things. And there might be slight delays, there might be slight changes to returns and make a calculated and educated decision.

Richard Bush:                    Yeah.

Paul Mahoney:                  Okay. So are these platforms available for ISA investments and are they available for pension investments?

Richard Bush:                    Some are and some aren’t. So the government launched IFISAs, I think about two years ago. And you can invest through an IFISA if it’s a debt investment. So the equity investments we talked about, they’re not available within an IFISA, but most debt investments are. And that means you can get your returns tax free. So that’s a great benefit for people that have an IFISA.

Pensions, the uptake, I think, of crowdfunding investments by pensions have been quite slow. SAS investments are increasing because they tend to be … You need to be a company director to have a SAS and therefore you tend to be more entrepreneurial and therefore more comfortable with the risk with your pension funds. But you have to go through the same process that you would investing in anything else through a SAS and you have to demonstrate your due diligence. So the levels are low, but I expect them to increase as time goes by.

Paul Mahoney:                  Okay. That’s interesting because a lot of people that I speak with that have an ISA, most people do in some form, most people have a pension, as well; but a lot of people don’t think about it as something that they can access for the purpose of making their own investment decisions. So that’s potentially something for people to think about. If they have one or both of those pots, could that be applied to a crowdfunding platform, and could they probably get a much better return than what’s being offered to them by the fund that it’s currently in?

Richard Bush:                    Yeah, I mean, returns will vary. Obviously I can’t really comment on that. But in terms of control, I think that’s the main difference. Platforms have experienced a lot of transfer from stocks and share ISAs and cash ISAs into IFISAs. And I think the main reason is control. You’re able to make individual investment decisions. All your returns come back into the IFISA wrapper, then you can reinvest it. So you can have significant returns, but you have significant control, which you don’t have typically with a stocks and shares fund.

Paul Mahoney:                  Yeah, okay. Good. Well look, I think we’ve covered that quite well, so far as what crowdfunding is. And I think to most people that have heard of crowdfunding, it’s a pretty cool, new thing. But we’ve also spoken about how people can try to mitigate risk a little bit and go about it in the right way, with confidence, with the right platforms, with somebody that’s regulated, obviously and how that applies to the consumer; but how it can also apply to the developer, in helping them fund their developments, perhaps overcoming any finance restrictions that may or may not be available in the current market, which it seems that just differs depending on who you’re talking to, with regards to that. But certainly in my opinion so long as it’s done correctly, it’s a good thing. It probably is only when people start to push the envelope a little bit that it becomes maybe not so much of a good thing.

Richard Bush:                    Yeah. Personally I think it’s a … For a developer, it’s a fantastic thing. And we have to produce a lot more homes in this country and small developers do find it difficult to get the funds that they need. What crowdfunding platforms enable is for them to do either more development or to do bigger developments than they could do themselves. And a lot of the investors get a good feeling out of that. They’re not just getting a good return, but they are helping a business do a good development and prosper as a result.

Paul Mahoney:                  Yeah, that’s a very good point. There is an ethical side to property development. I think a lot of people assume the opposite.

Richard Bush:                    Yes, agreed.

Paul Mahoney:                  You know? As far as landlord fat cats. But actually, a lot of the time, it’s landlords or crowdfunding platforms or developers that are actually providing new homes that are very much required in the current market. Well, thanks very much for that, Richard. I think that was very informative. And thank you for watching. Join us next time on Proper Wealth.

Speaker 3:                          Property is a great investment option, but it’s one of the largest purchases that you’ll ever make. As individuals, we’re all limited by our resources. And regardless of our experience, knowledge, or time, we can achieve much more with the help of a qualified team and extra resources being available. Nova Financial specialize in assisting clients to achieve financial freedom through property investment. With over 100 years of experience, we shape your family’s future. To invest in property with absolute confidence, call us on 0203 8000 600, or visit nova.financial.

Speaker 4:                          Property is a favored asset for many UK investors, but changes in tax legislation have taken the shine of buy-to-let as the investment of choice. Many are turning to crowdfunding platforms like CrowdLords to build a balanced property portfolio. And with investments available from only £250, it makes spreading the risk easy. Thanks to the innovative finance ISA, you can invest up to £20,000 each year without paying tax on the returns. And you can transfer your existing ISA balances to CrowdLords at no charge. Visit crowdlords.com/ifisa to find out more and to download your free guide.

Speaker 6:                          The tax system has evolved significantly over recent years for property investors and developers. You may think that you and your accountant have a grip on these changes. However, unless you are receiving specialist tax advice from a specialist tax advisory firm, then it’s unlikely to be the case. At ETC Tax, our team of highly experienced chartered tax advisors work with private individuals and companies to deliver effective tax planning whilst meeting HMRC compliance requirements. Let us help you to meet your personal or commercial objectives in the most tax efficient manner. ETC Tax, making the complex simple.

Stephen Galpin:                Hello, and welcome to Property TV. I’m Stephen Galpin, host of Property Question Time. We’ve completed the filming of series one, over 260 successful episodes. We’re now about to film series two. The difference? Well, we’re going to be filming in our new studio, adjacent to the Canary Wharf development. Keep those questions coming in to us. Keep our panelists, our experts, busy. And we hope you enjoy the new series as much as you did the last one.

Speaker 8:                          Meet the Author is a brand new mini-series involving leading experts in the property industry, including mentors, developers, property lawyers and other industry experts who share insightful stories about their journey and their books. Each book is compiled by authors with years of valuable experience, tips and observations, providing you with new knowledge about the property industry. To find out more, visit the website property-gv.co.uk/library.

 

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